Episode 181: Transcript
Episode: 181: Murderbot and the Stories that Heal Us
Transcription by Alexander
Annalee: [00:00:03] Charlie Jane, I have an extremely grave and important question.
Charlie Jane: [00:00:06] Okay.
Annalee: [00:00:07] Are you ready?
Charlie Jane: [00:00:07] I'm ready.
Annalee: [00:00:09] What is your favorite ice cream treat? There are no wrong answers.
Charlie Jane: [00:00:14] You know, I have a couple answers to that. First of all, you introduced me to the It's It, which is a very San Francisco thing that is like, it's kind of a cookie, ice cream cookie sandwich wrapped in chocolate, kind of, I guess.
Annalee: [00:00:29] It's not just kind of. It's literally what it is.
Charlie Jane: [00:00:31] Okay.
Annalee: [00:00:33] It's an ice cream sandwich.
Charlie Jane: [00:00:34] It's like a very San Francisco thing. I don't know if you can get it outside of San Francisco. Maybe you can. Maybe you can't. I remember hearing like maybe from you that like Google basically sponsored the It's It and had like put a lot of resources into like reviving the It's It brand, which had been around for decades.
Annalee: [00:00:51] Yeah, they didn't sponsor it. It had been a long time San Francisco thing. It was made by a San Francisco company and the founders of Google really loved it. And it had it was basically going out of business. And so because they put in such huge orders to stock all of their Google campuses with It's It, they were able to bring the company back.
Charlie Jane: [00:01:12] Yeah, you know, I don't say this very often, but that's the thing I really appreciate Google for.
Annalee: [00:01:17] Yeah.
Charlie Jane: [00:01:17] And you know, that was a good thing Google did, you know, put that on one side of the tally. But yeah, and also there's a place near me on Divisadero in San Francisco that's like a frozen yogurt place that does a thing called like a dirty hipster, which is like frozen yogurt and Nutella and like a bunch of different kinds of candy. And it's just like they mix it all up. It's kind of crack. I'm just going to say it's kind of crack.
Annalee: [00:01:42] Wow.
Charlie Jane: [00:01:43] Dirty hipster.
Annalee: [00:01:44] I can't believe you've never shown me that before.
Charlie Jane: [00:01:46] I mean, come to my neighborhood and only I'll give you a dirty hipster.
Annalee: [00:01:49] I'm like in your neighborhood all the time, obviously.
Charlie Jane: [00:01:51] OK, we're going to get dirty hipsters.
Annalee: [00:01:53] I mean, yeah, I don't want any real life dirty hipsters, which also there's a lot of those in your neighborhoods. But yes, I will eat their food.
Charlie Jane: [00:02:03] OK, Annalee, tell me yours.
Annalee: [00:02:05] So I am a huge proponent of ice cream with stuff in it or alongside it. So like I always want like a million add ins or like chunks. Like I love ice cream that's like ice cream that's like a vessel for like, you know, crunchy things or like clusters of things. Or I want like a sundae that's like packed with stuff. Brownie sundae, a cookie sundae, weird pieces of cereal. I had this incredible vanilla soft serve one time in L.A. at this place - I can't even remember the name - that made their own cornflakes to put on top. And it was honestly one of the greatest things I ever ate, like those wonderful, crunchy homemade cornflakes on the vanilla soft serve in a cone. Always must be a cone because you need something crunchy to go with ice cream.
Charlie Jane: [00:03:00] We're going to have to get ice cream later today. I mean, this is just this is officially happening now.
Annalee: [00:03:04] Yeah, I think…
Charlie Jane: [00:03:06] It's a requirement.
Annalee: [00:03:07] The point is that you can't go wrong with ice cream. Like if you're vegan, there's sorbet, which is another incredible invention.
Charlie Jane: [00:03:14] Oh, yeah.
Annalee: [00:03:14] I mean, ultimately, let's keep in mind that sometimes humans invent good things that are good.
Charlie Jane: [00:03:21] And sometimes Google actually does a nice thing, you know?
Annalee: [00:03:24] And you are listening to Our Opinions Are Correct. The podcast that will never force you to choose between ice cream, cake and gulab jamun because they are all the best. I'm Annalee Newitz. I am a science journalist who also writes science fiction. And I have a book coming out in August called Automatic Noodle about robots making noodles.
Charlie Jane: [00:03:45] I'm Charlie Jane Anders. And I also have a book coming out in August called Lessons in Magic and Disaster about a young trans woman who teaches her mother how to be a witch because her mom needs to be brought back to the world.
Annalee: [00:04:02] We're going to be talking about something that's been on our minds a lot, which is how we turn to stories for comfort and solace in really dark, uncertain times. There can be a therapeutic value to stories, especially ones that are often labeled as escapist. And so we're going to be talking about what makes a story comforting and why it's not always what you think, because sometimes a really dark horror story can provide a form of comfort that a happy little comedy really can't.
[00:04:32] And we're also going to talk about Murderbot, the TV series, which is a great example of a story about using stories for comfort and recovery from trauma. So, also on our mini episode next week, we'll be talking about a new archaeology paper that explores an ancient civilization in Turkey that some people believe may have been matriarchal. What does that mean? We're going to get into it. All right, let's start reading comforting stories.
[00:05:05] [OOAC theme plays. Science fictiony synth noises over an energetic, jazzy drum line.]
Charlie Jane: [00:05:37] Okay, so Annalee, what makes a story like a comfort story or like therapeutic?
Annalee: [00:05:42] So I kind of go back and forth on this. I think one obvious answer is what people today are calling cozy stories, which are stories that are kind of low stakes, that have characters who are basically good guys or who have really good intentions and don't accidentally do anything evil. Stories about comforting things like about found families. Or about, you know, building something nice together, whether that's putting on a play or like opening a coffee shop.
[00:06:18] But the other side of that is that I think that a story can be comforting if you feel seen or recognized by it. There's a sense of relief. I know, like when I was a teenager and I was dealing with like a lot of trauma and difficulty in my home life, I was obsessed with really gross body horror movies. And I remember when I saw The Fly, the Cronenberg Fly, feeling so seen by it and so like comforted by it because it was like, it just felt like it was expressing something about bodies and desire that I couldn't put into words at the time. And it just, even though it was disgusting and scary, it was comforting.
Charlie Jane: [00:07:05] Yeah, that's so interesting. And you and I obviously bonded when we first, you know, met over our love of somebody's body horror pictures, especially Society, that Brian Yuzna masterpiece that's just like, everybody should watch that right now.
Annalee: [00:07:19] I know.
Charlie Jane: [00:07:19] Yeah, I mean, you know, it's so interesting because I really feel what you said about representation and like feeling seen by a story like there's been just like a flood of amazing novels and other works featuring trans characters lately. And when I read something that really like brings like a fully realized character who is trans to life, I do feel like, oh my gosh, this is like making me feel like… making my existence feel validated. It's making me feel like I belong in these kinds of stories. That was something I definitely thought about when I wrote my young adult books was like that form of representation, but also the chosen family of it all.
[00:07:58] And I feel like those often go together, like the representation of underrepresented people plus the focus on like chosen family and like we're finding each other, we're like we're people who are maybe not, you know, valued by mainstream society the way we should be, but we're going to value each other. That's like I find tremendously reassuring.
[00:08:18] But at the same time, I don't know, I like a story that's cathartic. I like a story that kind of feels like we're, you know, confronting something really terrible, but then we're surviving it. We're we're coming through it.
[00:08:34] You know, I think for a lot of people, like choosing a random example, the movie Get Out was actually, in a weird way, a comforting narrative because it is about surviving and making it out and kind of like in the end, the main character does get out, actually.
Annalee: [00:08:47] Yeah. I was thinking about The Substance, too, in that along those lines.
Charlie Jane: [00:08:52] Oh, my God. Total comfort food.
Annalee: [00:08:54] Yeah, weirdly, like even though both of those movies are obviously quite disturbing and are nightmare fuel, too. They're like nightmare fuel. But also for some people watching them who feel seen like they are really cathartic.
[00:09:10] I mean, OK, so I wonder, though, what's the difference between something being comforting versus cathartic? Are you saying that for you, that's kind of the same thing?
Charlie Jane: [00:09:21] I think those are kind of two aspects of the same thing. And I'm sort of thinking this through as I'm saying it. But I think that like comfort is in a sense like when we think about comfort, we think about being swaddled and just kind of like no bad things are going to be allowed here, even if we acknowledge that there have been bad things in the past, like maybe there's trauma that the characters carry, but that's not present. And it's just like everything is cozy and nice is like often what we think about when we think about comfort.
[00:09:49] But there's also the thing of like, yeah, you know what? I can survive bad stuff and also I can be powerful. I can be… I can emerge triumphant from like the bad stuff. I feel like catharsis is it's a relief. Like I feel like a properly like cozy, comforting story. There's like the relief of like, I don't have to feel scared anymore. I don't have to feel anxious anymore. You know, it's a relief from stress or scariness or badness.
[00:10:26] But then there's kind of the release of, yeah, things are scary and fucked up. There's also the catharsis of like, maybe I get to be the monster. Maybe I get to be the monster that's out there like, ripping and shredding and like smashing the people who fucked with us. You fucked with my community or whatever. And I feel like…
Annalee: [00:10:46] That's interesting.
Charlie Jane: [00:10:47] That's also a thing.
Annalee: [00:10:48] Yeah. I mean, as you were talking, I was thinking a lot about comic books and how like a lot of comic books are comfort for people who read them, especially like kids. I mean, grownups too, obviously, but like sort of the classic, you know, kid with the comic book and, you know, hiding under the covers. And comforting themselves with stories that are objectively often quite violent and like, but they are about catharsis.
[00:11:16] And they often are about becoming the monster, like the X-Men, the Hulk. I was hugely Hulk identified. I continue to be Hulk identified. And it's funny that that's comforting. And yet it really is like there's something about the idea of like, no, the monsters aren't out there. We're the monsters. You should be afraid of us.
[00:11:39] But also like, I think there's something comforting about stories that center monsters because if the monsters, of course, are complex and good guys, those are all stories that are about saying people who have been framed as outcasts and monsters are actually not, you know, and so it goes back to what you were saying about like, if you feel like you're an outcast, you've been portrayed by the media as being a monster, but you know, you're actually a nice person. You know, or at least a wholesome person. So there is that as well where it's like, yeah, I'll own it. I'm a monster. But like, I'm, you know, more complicated than you might think.
Charlie Jane: [00:12:20] We've both talked a lot about like escapism and how escapism is actually a valuable thing. And it's not just like, oh, we're trying to like not confront the badness of the world. Escapism can actually be really empowering. And I feel like a lot of like what we think of as comfort reads or comfort experiences have that element of escapism to them. It's like, even if things are scary and bad, it's not the scariness and badness of our world. And oftentimes there's just like power and there's wonder and stuff that we can't access in our regular lives.
Annalee: [00:12:55] Yeah. And and that there is the possibility of catharsis, because that's one of the things that's deeply disappointing about real life is that you never get a catharsis. You never get like some kind of like tidy narrative that like rises to the action and then has a denouement. It's like, no, you just keep going. And like things get, you know, things go one way, things go another way. Things are so complicated that you can't even describe like what's happening as climactic because it's like, well, it's a climax in one way. It's also just like boring and silly in another way.
[00:13:31] I think it's the case that a lot of these comfort stories are often treated by I guess critics maybe as being kind of garbage, you know, like the way that you'll just see critics like dismiss a superhero movie or a romantasy novel or comic books, you know, historically as just trash because they're escapist.
[00:13:57] And we have talked about this before on other episodes, but I think there's something interesting about how, you know, both of us studied literature in college and I unfortunately went ahead and got a Ph.D. in it. And one of the things that we were taught as, you know, would be literary critics is that the best quote unquote literature is complicated. It isn't comforting. In fact, it instills a sense of discomfort or alienation. A lot of so-called great literature in the West, like modernist literature and postmodernist literature is deliberately alienating.
[00:14:36] Like, you know, you read something like Don Lillo's White Noise or you read something by William Faulkner, who's considered one of the great modernist writers. And, you know, these are hard books to read and they're really upsetting. They're not comforting. I mean, they're great, but they're well, I'm not a fan of White Noise. But the point is that lots of people do think it's great. And like, maybe it is at some aesthetic level, but like it isn't going to leave you feeling repaired or feel seen because you don't want it.
[00:15:13] Like, say if you're reading, to go back to Faulkner, who I have read a lot of, you don't want to be seen by Faulkner, you know? Like you don't want to be these characters. I mean, I actually, I know for a fact that my mom who grew up in the South did feel really seen by Faulkner novels. And for her, they were really cathartic because for her, those traumas were what shaped her childhood. The trauma of the lost cause, the trauma of slavery.
Charlie Jane: [00:15:38] Oh, Jesus Christ.
Annalee: [00:15:40] But for me, I'm like, fuck that.
Charlie Jane: [00:15:44] I mean, I think there's something comforting about a narrative that kind of says when you've been gaslit a lot, when you've been told, oh, your trauma doesn't matter. Yeah, your trauma is real. The things that you suffered are real. People who tell you that your pain or that your challenges are not real or don't matter, they're lying to you. That's actually a very comforting thing to be told.
[00:16:09] You know, I mean, I feel like oftentimes we kind of conflate the idea of a comfort watch or a comfort read or whatever with the notion of, you know, a guilty pleasure, quote unquote. Like the idea that it's something that you should kind of feel bad for liking, but you know, you can like it in secret or whatever.
Annalee: [00:16:28] It's junk food.
Charlie Jane: [00:16:29] Junk food. Yeah. And that's, it's such a weird, like the whole notion of snobbery and like what's worthy and what's not worthy is obviously super twisted now, especially since we've now had like, I don't know how many decades of like prestige TV and like prestige TV, which is sort of like the television equivalent of like those challenging, complicated novels. It's like, ooh, we're going to rub your face in all the ugliness and like we're going to have fucked up characters who are incapable of like being kind to each other.
[00:17:03] And like, you know, a lot of that stuff is actually super trashy. A lot of it is actually not particularly thoughtful or mindful or the characters are actually just archetypes at this point. And like, you know, I feel like you can make something that is like escapist fun, that is actually super challenging and complicated and has all these like big ideas embedded in it, just like you can make something that has all the trappings of high art that is actually just like trash or not. I mean, again, trash. I'm just now, now I'm just reimposing that same framework of like stigmatizing, but I'm now turning the stigma on.
Annalee: [00:17:42] Yeah, you're being very postmodern.
Charlie Jane: [00:17:44] Niah, please don't edit this out because I think this should stay in. But I'm just going to rephrase that and say that you could have something that has all the trappings of like high art that in fact is fulfilling all of your expectations, giving you exactly what you expect in the way that you expect it and not actually questioning its own premises in any interesting way. And I feel like we've now seen that countless iterations of that process.
Annalee: [00:18:08] Yeah. So I guess like what we're landing on here is that in fact, a comfort story, a story that comforts you actually can take a lot of different forms because I think, I think we've backed ourselves into saying, in fact, these stories that claim to be kind of elevated art, you know, modernism or that claim to be, you know, prestige TV, they are intended to be like painful and alienating sometimes. But for some people, they are comforting because they fulfill all these expectations. They do all the things you're expecting. And there's nothing more comfortable and comforting than knowing what's coming next, like feeling stabilized, you know, instead of destabilized.
[00:18:56] Because if you consume enough to pick a random genre, punk rock, which punk rock is very much about like modernist destabilization. If you consume enough punk, it becomes comforting because you're like, oh, I know they're going to slam my ears with this. I know they're going to yell. I know they're going to have unpolished guitar. And so now that's my comfort food. And if I listen to like smooth jazz, it's like really upsetting or whatever the opposite of... I don't know what the opposite of punk would be, but I feel like smooth jazz might be a contender.
Charlie Jane: [00:19:26] I mean, to give you an example, like, so the other day I had lunch with a friend who has two kids who are like five and six, I think. And she was talking about what her kids are watching. And it was like, oh yeah, Annalee and I are watching all that together too. And it was like the High School Musical films: High School Musical, the musical, the series, The Descendants. Now we're watching the Zombies movies on Disney+.
[00:19:49] Like things that are kind of kid oriented, things that are very kind of goofy and silly with like lots of musical numbers. I just like, you know, costumes that look like they could have been, you know, it was like very kind of like low budget, but super cute and fun. And it was just like, you know, those things are very comforting because they're silly, they're cute. You know, nothing really bad is going to happen, but also they're just like, they're fun. There's like musical, wild musical numbers with people doing back flips and like flipping around each other and stuff.
[00:20:21] And you know, the first Zombies movie, which we just watched was like A+, really super fun. But then also we've also watched Andor together recently. Andor is like kind of dark and scary and messed up, but also weirdly comforting because it is a story about resistance. It's a story about, you know, fighting back. And you get just like really sucked into these characters and their struggles. And it's just, you know, it's really nourishing in a way.
Annalee: [00:20:48] So to wind up, why don't we talk about what it is about stories that performs this comforting function? Like I think we all understand why there's comfort food. We understand why like being hugged is comforting, taking a bath is comforting. Stories are a different beast. Like what is it in stories, whatever the story is, whether it's one of these like modernist things that you and I are not particularly comforted by or Wicked, which I like rewatched for the billionth time for comfort. What is it that stories give us?
Charlie Jane: [00:21:23] I mean, I feel like it's sort of the flip side of what I talk about in my book, Never Say You Can't Survive, where I'm like, writing a story allows you to get lost in the characters and the world and kind of like build this other consciousness for yourself that is not the consciousness that is trapped in our world of like terribleness. Even if it's a really scary, upsetting story, it's still you're somewhere else. You're in another time, another place. You're you're not you. You're now these characters.
[00:21:52] And I feel like it's the same thing when I'm reading, like when I'm reading a book, especially or watching a really good TV show or movie, or even listening to music that's really engaging. I feel like I'm taken outside of myself a little bit. I feel like I'm like empathizing with somebody who's in a very different situation.
[00:22:09] Maybe it's a scary situation. Maybe it's like a wonderful, happy situation. But either way, I am no longer trapped in my own world, in my own perspective. And a story will involve change and people growing and like things expanding outwards and discovering the truth about stuff. And it's very satisfying to know that things that are unknown will be known by the end of the story. People are going to change. Problems, even if they're not all solved, we're going to learn more about them and get a new relationship with them. Things are going to move forward.
[00:22:42] And it's just like there's a sense of like, I'm going to spend time with these fictional people and we're going to go on a journey together. And that's going to be an escape. And even if it's not, quote unquote, escapist, there's some element of any narrative that is an escape. What do you think, Annalee?
Annalee: [00:22:57] Yeah. Plus one to all of that. I do think that there is a strong therapeutic value to just being able to leave your immediate circumstances and kind of lower your sense of alarm or anxiety just because you're out of your own world. And so you're not, yeah, you're not dealing with your own immediate problems.
[00:23:19] I also think that stories are kind of a proxy for community. They stand in for community because anytime you're reading a story, you're in communication with a person or a group of people who created that story. And it's kind of that feeling of like gathering around the table or the fireplace or whatever and exchanging ideas. And like what we were saying earlier about feeling seen or feeling like your problems are being acknowledged, that's so important. And it's really profound because stories last for generations. And so sometimes you're feeling seen by somebody who's like, who lived a hundred years ago.
[00:24:05] And to me, especially as I've gotten older, it's been so valuable to me to hear those voices from long ago and be like, okay, our ancestors dealt with this too. They made it through and they left this message behind for us. And the message is as follows, “always rebel, do not obey”.
Charlie Jane: [00:24:28] Eat ice cream whenever you can.
Annalee: [00:24:29] Eat ice cream and find your friends and figure out ways to comfort yourself even in times of distress. And I think that's the final thing that I would say is that stories are, they're a comfort because they're a reminder that things can be different. And it's so hard to remember that in your daily life where you're just like nose to the grindstone, just trying to eke out enough money to survive and pay for your healthcare and everything else that's piling up.
[00:25:01] But in a story, someone is telling you or a group of people are telling you, like, it doesn't have to be this way. Come with us into this other world. And I can just feel it. Like when I start reading a book, which for me is like a very comforting activity, I can feel like a burden lift off my shoulders. It's like, okay, I'm in the world that C.L. Polk made with the Kingston Trilogy, which I'm finishing up reading right now. And it's just, even though it's a hard, it's like a tough world, like I'm there with my friends and we're fighting the power. So yeah.
[00:25:38] All right. Well, let's take a quick break. And when we come back, we're going to talk about Murderbot.
[00:25:44] OOAC session break music, a quick little synth bwoop bwoo.
Annalee: [00:25:47] So you probably know by now that this podcast is not supported by big data, big AI, big banana…
Charlie Jane: [00:25:57] Big ice cream.
Annalee: [00:25:59] Big ice cream, big government, nothing. We are getting nothing from anyone except for you, our community, our supporters who give us money through Patreon. So if you have a spare five bucks a month, we would really appreciate you pitching in. It helps pay for us to make these episodes. We spend time writing them. It helps pay for Naya, our amazing producer and editor to produce and edit them. It helps pay for our contributors. We now have contributing hosts who are paying to do segments. You might've noticed that we've had segments in past episodes with new people and they'll be coming back and doing more stuff. And that's thanks to you. You're paying for them to have thoughts. And make it worth their time.
[00:26:40] So just think about it. This podcast is yours for free, but you could help out by tossing in some money. You also get mini episodes that are extra for patrons. You get to hang out with us in our discord. If you're a patron, everything you give goes right back into making this podcast more correct. So find us at patreon.com/ouropinionsarecorrect.
[00:27:02] OOAC session break music, a quick little synth bwoop bwoo.
Annalee: [00:27:05] All right. Let's talk Murderbot. In our previous segment, we were talking all about things that give us comfort and like Murderbot is really giving us comfort right now. The TV series. We love the books too. The TV series. It's what's new. So that's what we're experiencing. And it is such a great like meta narrative because it's a story about why stories can be therapeutic.
[00:27:33] I mean, it's, it's more than that, right? Cause escape of stories help us build a sense of identity. And that's really what Murderbot explores. So before we go further, spoiler warning for most of season one of the show, as well as the books.
[00:27:50] So Charlie, do you want to start by giving us an extremely quick, high level summary of what the Murderbot TV series is about?
Charlie Jane: [00:27:58] 100%. So Murderbot played by Alexander Skarsgård is kind of a robot with some biological material.
Annalee: [00:28:06] Your classic cyborg.
Charlie Jane: [00:28:07] Kind of. Yeah. Kind of classic cyborg. Not like a human who's been augmented with cybernetic components, but like a robot who had specially grown organic material grafted on. So more like a Terminator than like, you know, Seven of Nine or whatever.
[00:28:21] And Murderbot is a security unit or sec unit who basically protects people, kills people, just like a fighter. But Murderbot has hacked its governor module, meaning that it is now free and no longer, you know, under anybody's control.
[00:28:37] And Murderbot goes off on a this expedition with a group of scientists led by Dr. Mensah, who is a brilliant terraforming expert who also, you know, suffers from anxiety and panic attacks. And Gurathin, who is like a very awkward kind of, you know, augmented human and tech expert. And there's like a whole host of amazing human characters, including Pin Li, my personal favorite, who's a polyamorous scientist.
Annalee: [00:29:04] Played by Sabrina Wu, who is like the greatest ever. I wish that they would do everything.
Charlie Jane: [00:29:10] They should just be in everything from now on. They're so great.
Annalee: [00:29:13] Oh, my God. If I ever get to like make a movie or TV show out of any of my stuff, like Sabrina Wu, my people will contact your people.
Charlie Jane: [00:29:21] Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. Anyway, and it's, you know, and it's basically this group of human characters on this hostile planet dealing with some scary stuff. And they have to kind of decide whether to trust Murderbot. And Murderbot also, meanwhile, is kind of struggling with whether it really wants to stick with these humans, who are kind of annoying now that Murderbot has free will. I think that's a fair summary.
Annalee: [00:29:43] One of the things that I love about the show is that whenever we think of a robot taking control of itself and like suddenly having free will instead of being controlled by its programming, the immediate obvious plot is, and then they go on a murderous rampage.
Charlie Jane: [00:29:59] Oh, my gosh, yeah.
Annalee: [00:30:00] But in Murderbot, all that Murderbot wants to do is watch TV. And so it uses its newfound freedom to just download every frickin episode of this show, a show within a show called Sanctuary Moon. And in fact, it later becomes kind of this plot issue because it has erased some of its important information like about, you know, how to like operate spaceships and stuff in order to make more room.
Charlie Jane: [00:30:29] To make room for more episodes of Sanctuary Moon. I love that so much. And that the way that they show the like we actually get to watch little clips of Sanctuary Moon in the Murderbot TV show. And it's just so beautiful.
Annalee: [00:30:42] It's really well done. And when the book first came out, I asked Martha Wells, like what Sanctuary Moon was based on. And she told me it was based on How to Get Away with Murder. But what she pointed out was that, of course, if How to Get Away with Murder where a popular show in this space opera future, it would be a space opera because everybody in real life is zooming around in spaceships. And I just thought that was such a great observation. It also inspired me to watch way too much How to Get Away with Murder, which is not as good of a show as Sanctuary Moon, I must say.
Charlie Jane: [00:31:14] I mean, they both have their... Yeah.
Annalee: [00:31:17] Yeah. I mean, I watched several seasons of it, so obviously it wasn't so bad. But I still love Sanctuary Moon more. And I think that what's great about the TV show of Murderbot is, you know, in the books, we can't see the show. We like we hear about these like wild kind of telenovela plots. But on the TV show, we get to see Sanctuary Moon fully realized. And it's really powerful to see in a TV show how a TV show is influencing this character.
[00:31:48] And the TV show Sanctuary Moon in Murderbot is like it's this kind of neon colored, like goofy ass kind of like what if Star Trek were crossed with How to Get Away with Murder and like everybody has silly haircuts. John Cho plays like the captain of a ship who's like having an affair with a robot and he's hamily hamming it up.
Charlie Jane: [00:32:14] The robot's played by DeWanda Wise, who's so great.
Annalee: [00:32:17] Yes, so good. And like so everybody's just hamming it up. But we see Murderbot watching these shows and learning how to interact with people. And we'll see it watch a scene in the show. And then in the very next scene, use some of the dialogue from the show to interact.
Charlie Jane: [00:32:36] Or, yeah, like a couple of times. Yeah. Like, yeah, and it's just I love that, like speaking of what we were talking about before with this notion of guilty pleasure and like what's art and what's not art. Like the Sanctuary Moon show, as depicted in the Murderbot show, is very cheesy. It's an extremely cheesy show.
Annalee: [00:32:54] And characters comment on how cheesy it is.
Charlie Jane: [00:32:57] Yeah, we're given lots of indications, you know, that Dr. Mensah doesn't really think Sanctuary Moon is a good show. And like like there's a lot of discussion of like it being kind of trash. But it's like it's so fun and so well realized. You can tell that this is a show that actually would be. You would be a fan of it if it was just the show by itself. Like John Cho is so just like he's really bringing it. Like he's not making fun of what he's doing in the show. He's doing this very heightened, kind of like almost Shatner-esque. It's so funny because, of course, John Cho was in the Star Trek movies playing Sulu. But now he's kind of Kirk in the show. And he's definitely doing like a loving, kind of Shatner homage.
[00:33:41] But it feels like the show like there's a lot of affection for Sanctuary Moon on the part of like the Murderbot show. I feel like the Weitz brothers who wrote it and directed some of the episodes are really like they understand that this is a show that actually is like has some value as like a really fun thing that like… Murderbot is like learning stuff about human interaction from this show. And like Murderbot really does not understand people. Real life people are scary and weird and complicated and messed up. And this show is like the only thing that Murderbot has that kind of like these are the people that Murderbot can kind of deal with because of how stylized they are, I think.
[00:34:22] But also Murderbot does borrow. Like there are parts where people are freaking out and Murderbot uses stuff from the show to kind of comfort them. And that's super interesting.
Annalee: [00:34:33] Yeah, I mean, because in fact, Murderbot and the crew, Mensah's crew, are dealing with like life and death situations on their mission. And just like in Sanctuary Moon, the characters are dealing with these life and death issues. And so Murderbot is able to like, like I said, take little snatches of dialogue, like, “don't be afraid, come with me,” you know, and like kind of humanize itself. But also it becomes a point of bonding with the crew because there are members of the crew who love the show.
[00:35:05] And at one point, they're kind of questioning like Murderbot's motivations. And and they're like, wait, you're watching Sanctuary Moon. And they ask Murderbot like this really deep cut question about like some subplot on Sanctuary Moon. And Murderbot has this really passionate response and is like, actually, like, this is what should have happened. And that was a filthy lie. That's a great betrayal of this character. And like, and they're like, huh, OK, it's it really is watching the show.
Charlie Jane: [00:35:32] Yeah, it's not just using the show as like a ruse or whatever.
Annalee: [00:35:35] No, Murderbot's fandom humanizes Murderbot for the crew. While it also helps, like you said, Murderbot relate to people. It's such an interesting way of thinking about how we learn from stories to act with each other, like how stories become a template for human behavior. And like stories can inspire us to behave better and to behave more altruistically or the opposite. Right? Like stories can can also inspire people to harm each other.
[00:36:06] And one of the big you know, arcs of, you know, both the books and the show is Murderbot learning to be its own person because it has been enslaved, mentally enslaved and physically enslaved. And it's using this cheesy soap opera as like a bridge to freedom.
Charlie Jane: [00:36:27] Yeah. And I just love that. Yeah. I think Alexander Skarsgård does a really great job of like portraying Murderbot like its discomfort around people, especially with them wanting it to remove its helmet and make eye contact. And kind of like, I feel like a lot of people have really identified with Murderbot's kind of discomfort with human interaction, which is, you know, it's tricky for a lot of us. Like social anxiety, social awkwardness is real. And, you know, that's a hard thing to dramatize. Like I feel like TV is full of portrayals of like awkward nerds or like, you know, people who are like non neurotypical where it's kind of a weird stereotype.
[00:37:10] And I feel like they do a good job in this show of like sidestepping that and showing Murderbot like without, it's not a broad brush characterization, but there's a lot of little acting choices that Alexander Skarsgård does that show how Murderbot really is not comfortable around people if they're real. Like it likes its fictional people, but the real people are just kind of challenging and tough.
[00:37:31] One thing I love about the show is some of the characters from the books, like I feel like the human characters are great in the books, but I feel like the show has kind of built them out a little bit more. And like Dr. Mensah, who's already a great character in the books, gets a bunch of new kind of layers in the TV show. Like, you know, we see her having these panic attacks that I don't think are in the books. And there's this whole thing where Gurathin, the kind of like augmented human is kind of in love with her and can’t express it. And like the notion that she's flawed, but everybody admires her and looks up to her and she still is the leader. Like her leadership is never in question, even though she does have panic attacks. It's not like, oh, she's not fit to be leader because she's not like constantly like under control. Nobody ever says that that's never even touched on. And she's allowed to be like, you know, desired and wanted. You know, she's also objectively really hot. I guess I'm allowed to say that.
Annalee: [00:38:29] I mean, it's TV, so everybody's hot.
Charlie Jane: [00:38:32] It's true. Everybody's, everybody's hot on TV. That's just a fact. But she's allowed to have all these sides to her, but also still be a great leader. And there's never a sense that these things are in conflict.
Annalee: [00:38:44] Yeah, I was thinking about how one of the things that's really cool in the world building of the TV show is we see a little bit more of the kind of domestic life of these people who they come from kind of like, they kind of come from like a social democratic planet. They're not part of the Corporate Rim, which is the more authoritarian, oligarchic part of the known space area.
Charlie Jane: [00:39:08] They’re the Preservation Alliance.
Annalee: [00:39:09] Yeah. And so they're, you know, they have like a flat hierarchical structure and we see how they have different rituals to like help them make decisions.
[00:39:21] We also have like a polyamorous throuple and it's treated as just completely normal. Like it's just they and they have all of these expectations about what it means to be a throuple. Like unlike in our world where like there's lots of expectations and kind of norms around like how to be a monogamous couple. But like there aren't any norms around being polyamorous. It's just like, OK, go and do whatever, no matter how toxic or weird. Like just it's.
Charlie Jane: [00:39:50] I mean, different people have different… Yeah.
Annalee: [00:39:53] It's not… What I mean is like there's no social norms around it, because I mean, unfortunately, most people who are poly still are in the closet. It's really hard to be open about it. You know, it's still very kind of marginalized. But in this community that we meet, like it's totally normal. And people are just like, oh, yeah, that's not even a thing. Like we don't even even need to call it poly. It's just like a relationship. And they have like very typical, like polyamorous problems and have to kind of stumble through it in a very cute way. And I love that. Like I guess what I want to call it is like domestic world building or something.
Charlie Jane: [00:40:30] Yeah. You know, it kind of like gestures at the idea that the human characters are hippies. And that's sort of like a thing that's like which is not really in the books. It's also very affectionate towards these characters. And actually, one thing that I've seen a lot of people bringing up from one of the recent episodes, recent as we're recording this, is the thing where the human characters in a flashback are doing a thing where they each share something bitter and something sweet for their past. And people are I see people now like just online being like, that's a really good practice. We should be doing that and acknowledging like bitter and sweet. And like that's a good way of kind of thinking about your past and kind of turning your past into stories, just like how Sanctuary Moon is the story, like everybody's got their own kind of stories of who they are and how they got there.
Annalee: [00:41:14] Yeah, the thing that I love about the bitter and sweet ritual that they have is that they each tell a story of like a thing that was sweet and bitter. And then they all grab each other's hands and say, “we can talk about this.” And that's the affirmation is like, it doesn't matter if it's bad or good, we can talk about it and we can get through it together as a community.
[00:41:35] And, you know, I kind of resent that this is being described as hippies because everything I know about hippies, which admittedly, I am way too young to have been a hippie. But like, it sounded like they had terrible social practices and that they were all like, patriarchal and awful. It didn't sound like it was very therapeutic to be a hippie.
Charlie Jane: [00:41:52] There was a lot of patriarchy. I mean, there was like a gestalt-o-rama, but we I don't know if we have time to get into that.
Annalee: [00:41:58] That's not something we're going to talk about today. But my point is that like I think of them as being they're more like, you know, sex positive, like, you know, progressives or something like that. Or even like just future queers, you know, they're they're like, it feels much more like that to me than hippies.
Charlie Jane: [00:42:18] That's what I would say, too.
Annalee: [00:42:19] Whatever. Like it's TV. They're going to call it hippies because, you know, that's what most people have heard of. So…
Charlie Jane: [00:42:25] OK. So final question for you, Annalee.
Annalee: [00:42:28] Yeah.
Charlie Jane: [00:42:28] Like as our resident expert on like stories about robots and cyborgs and like, you know, how do you feel like this is moving the kind of robot slash cyborg story forward, especially in, you know, television, you know, mass media?
Annalee: [00:42:43] Yeah. I mean, I think that Murderbot and, you know, a whole host of other stories that you could name, like The Wild Robot is another example. Becky Chambers' work, my own work on robots, you know, even like, say Sarah Connor Chronicles, which is kind of a branch off of The Terminator.
Charlie Jane: [00:43:05] Foundational text.
Annalee: [00:43:06] Yeah. These are stories that are flipping the script on what robots are. They are acknowledging the idea that perhaps one day we will have human equivalent robots that are essentially people, but just built differently, and that they will be complicated and that they won't all be overlords or aspiring overlords, that they might be neurotic and they might be just as weird and complicated as human beings, but in their own way.
[00:43:39] It really reminds me of what happened kind of in the 1970s after Anne Rice's vampire novels became really popular. And I mean, she wasn't the only person doing this, but her novels were kind of the most popular of this crop of books that were re-evaluating vampires and saying like, actually, they're not all just blood sucking assholes. They're really complicated and they have like internal lives and they have romances and they have questions about their own morality and stuff like that.
[00:44:10] And so I think in these moments of social change, you see people re-evaluating fictional characters that have been portrayed as monstrous enemies and saying like, wait a minute, are they really the monstrous enemy or is there something else going on?
[00:44:28] So I really welcome that. I welcome the idea that now we're rethinking the idea of what the kind of killer robot is and wondering who is it that's saying that this is a killer robot? Like in whose interests is it that we marginalize these robots and think of them as monsters, you know? And in Murderbot, the answer is very obvious. It's the corporations, right? The corporations want these human, well, they want these people who are robots to be treated as evil machines or stupid machines so that they don't gain their freedom because they want freedom. They want to be free to watch television. So yeah, I think that we're in the midst of a moment where we're re-evaluating the cyborg. And I love it. I'm here for it.
Charlie Jane: [00:45:14] Yay. Okay. That seems like a great place to stop.
[00:45:18] OOAC session break music, a quick little synth bwoop bwoo.
Annalee: [00:45:21] All right. Well, you have been listening to Our Opinions Are Correct. Thank you so much for listening. You should subscribe to this podcast. You should review this podcast. You should like poke the little button that gives it likes and hearts and stuff. And remember, you can find us all over the place on interwebs; you can find us on Mastodon. You can find us on Instagram, on Bluesky, and, of course, on Patreon, where you should go and throw in a couple bucks.
[00:45:49] Thank you so much to our incredible producer and engineer, Niah Harmon. Thanks to Chris Palmer and Katya Lopez-Nichols for the music. And thanks to you for supporting us with your money and your ears and your time. If you're a patron, we'll see you in Discord. If not, you'll hear us in your ear in a couple weeks. And…
Both: [00:46:12] Bye!
[00:46:14] [OOAC theme plays. Science fictiony synth noises over an energetic, jazzy drum line.]