Episode 160: Transcript
Episode: 160: Science Fiction is a Normalization Machine (with Rob Cameron)
Transcription by Alexander
Annalee: [00:00:00] Charlie Jane, when you were a kid, did you want to be normal or did you want to be weird?
Charlie Jane: [00:00:06] You know, I don't think I ever really felt like I had an option because when I was a kid, you know, I was learning disabled. I was also just like a very weird kid and I had a weird family. And I think that at no point when I was a kid, did I ever feel as though there was like a possibility for me to be quote unquote normal. And really all my memories of being like a little kid or that I wanted to grow up to be Dr. Who. So I feel like my life goal was to just grow up and become Dr. Who. So I feel like that kind of tells you where I was at. How about you?
Annalee: [00:00:36] I remember being really invested in how weird I was, which maybe is a sign that I wasn't very weird. But my best friend in elementary school and I, like, we had this kind of pact that we would be as weird as possible. And we would do things like walk around just like singing out loud all the time and like, you know, playing imagination games and just doing whatever the heck we wanted and not really worrying if people thought we were bonkers. And I've been thinking about this a lot. This like, do you want to be weird? Do you want to be normal thing? Because I knew a lot of kids who did really want to be normal, especially in middle school and high school. People would say like, you know, be normal, like normal. And I keep flashing back to, you know, how weird and normal now are sort of the words we're using to define our political landscape because, you know, currently, you know, as we're recording, the whole discourse around “weird” has just erupted online.
[00:01:38] Like, are we going to call, you know, our political opponents weird? And is that an effective strategy that the Democrats are calling the Republicans weird? But meanwhile, in 2017, right after Trump was elected, the media was just flooded with questions around what's normal. And is Trump normalizing certain kinds of extremist views or normalizing the idea of being corrupt?
[00:02:01] So I feel like now, like election years in the United States are just all about what's normal and what's weird. And I really wish we could just get back to thinking about, like, norm core shoes and weirding weapons, you know?
Charlie Jane: [00:02:15] The weirding way. I mean, I feel like that is what our politics have always been about. You know, who gets to claim normalcy, as they used to call it. Like, and, you know, I feel like it's been a weird feature of American politics my whole life: this idea that, like, what we're really deciding is not how the government is going to spend money or like whether it's going to build more highways or spend more on public transit. We're really deciding who gets to be like the mainstream. And like it's all culture war all the way down.
[00:02:45] I don't know. I feel like it is good that we've gone from like Trump is normalizing hate and extreme rhetoric to we're now going to denormalize Trump. Because I feel like even though it's objectively bizarre to like use weird as like a weapon, I feel like in this one case, it kind of does re-center things because those of us who are like, for example, trans and like kind of like, you know, loopy people in general, like I'm loopy and I'm trans. I'm not. Those are two separate aspects of identity.
Annalee: [00:03:15] Are you claiming loopiness as I'm claiming?
Charlie Jane: [00:03:17] I'm labeling myself as loopy. And like, you know, we're used to being kind of pinpointed as like they're the ones who are weird. And so to turn that back around actually does kind of feel refreshing, and it kind of takes it off of us a little bit. I feel like something being lifted off of me and placed onto the people who arguably have done more to deserve it because I'm just sitting here living my life and they're out there being like, “let's have 5000 babies by like putting our sperm into people's like drinking water or whatever.” I don't even know. “Let's try to put our sperm into the water supply so that…”
Annalee: [00:03:50] Gosh, that is kind of weird.
Charlie Jane: [00:03:50] I feel like some of these guys really do want to put their sperm into like the water supply. So anybody who…
Annalee: [00:03:55] Normalizing spermy drinking water.
Charlie Jane: [00:03:58] …is just super weird. And like, I don't know, I'm here for it. I do think it's interesting kind of this reminds me of like, that trope in like Buffy and a bunch of other shows where like the main character gets to be like the chosen one and is like the most important person in the world. And they're just like, “But I just want to be normal. Why can't I just have a normal life?” And it's like, “Shut up. You're like, having this like awesome life of like being special and like having everybody tell you you're special and all you say is, ‘But I just want to be normal.’” And that's always bugged me whenever they do that in shows like that. But I digress.
Annalee: [00:04:29] And that's what we're all about here at Our Opinions Are Correct, the podcast about science fiction and digression. I'm Annalee Newitz. I'm a science journalist who also writes science fiction. And my latest book is nonfiction. It's called Stories Are Weapons: Psychological Warfare and the American Mind.
Charlie Jane: [00:04:49] Hey, I'm Charlie Jane Anders. I write science fiction. I also write a bunch of other stuff. And my next book comes out in 2025. It's called Lessons in Magic and Disaster.
Annalee: [00:05:00] It is so good. You guys are going to love this book. Seriously, I can't wait for it to be out.
[00:05:05] So this week we're talking about normalization in science fiction and fantasy. I think science fiction is a normalization machine. It really helps readers get used to new ideas. It helps introduce readers to the idea that people might seem strange or unexpected and that's not a problem. And we're going to think about what it looks like when normalization is good and not so good. And later in the episode, we are super lucky to be joined by Rob Cameron, who is going to talk to us about his journey as a neurodivergent writer, as well as a teacher who works with neurodivergent kids and ESL learners.
[00:05:44] He's going to also talk to us about his new novel Daydreamer, which is about a fierce and creative neurodivergent kid named Charles. And also on our mini episode next week, we'll be talking about a new scientific paper about plot twists. Surprise. There's going to be a twist.
Charlie Jane: [00:06:00] Ooh. And that reminds me, you know, we have a Patreon. This podcast is entirely listener supported. You might not have noticed that there's no ads for like, you know, bungee jumping software or whatever that helps you optimize your bungee jumping. There's no weird ads on this podcast.
Annalee: [00:06:18] Or like ways to optimize sperm into water systems.
Charlie Jane: [00:06:22] Exactly. There's no sperm water ads in this podcast whatsoever. You know, we actually tried to line up some deals and we didn't manage to make that work.
Annalee: [00:06:30] Yeah, they didn't want to work with us.
Charlie Jane: [00:06:31] I know. What the hell? But what we are is entirely supported by you, our listeners. And it's it's just a beautiful community that you could be a part of. If you joined our Patreon, just kick in a few bucks a month. It all goes back to making this podcast happen. And you can hang out with us in our Discord. You get mini episodes every other week. It's super legit and super rad. You can find out more at patreon.com/ouropinionsarecorrect. All right, let's get normal.
[00:06:59] [OOAC theme plays. Science fiction synth noises over an energetic, jazzy drum line.]
Charlie Jane: [00:07:32] All right, so let's talk about normalization. What does that term mean? Like science fiction is full of stuff that's not normal in the real world. So what does it mean to talk about science fiction in the context of normalizing things?
Annalee: [00:07:44] So I really think that science fiction and fantasy and also horror for that matter can really help people become curious about things that seem different or strange rather than inspiring them to run away from those things or hate those things. It makes otherworldly things seem normal.
[00:08:02] And in that way, it really does prepare us for new stages in our civilization. Early science fiction made space travel seem completely normal. It really prepared people for the idea that we would one day be going to the moon or going to Mars. And, you know, a lot of science fiction since the late 20th century has really focused on social issues around diversity, for example, and making diversity seem normal.
[00:08:27] And when I say diversity, I mean absolutely the kind of diversity that we have here on Earth: racial diversity, gender diversity, religious diversity. But also, you know, in science fiction, of course, and fantasy, that's often staged as other kinds of diversity, too. Creatures from many worlds or many dimensions, you know, all come together and kind of hanging out.
Charlie Jane: [00:08:47] Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting because one of the things that we always say about science fiction is that it allows you to talk about kind of social issues that are really hard to talk about in a realist narrative because people get kind of triggered and freaked out. But if you set it on another planet in the distant future, it's like, “Oh, we could talk about the Vietnam War, you know, or we could talk about like all the current wars that we're having and people could just like roll with it.” I think that that's really true. But I also think that the flip side is true is that science fiction can take things in the real world that might seem strange to us and kind of just help us to see them in a context where we don't get as freaked out by seeing them. And so I really do believe that you're right that science fiction is a normalization machine.
[00:09:28] So, OK, let's define our terms. What do you mean when you say “normal”? And what do you mean when you say “normalization”?
Annalee: [00:09:34] Yeah, so I thought that there was a really easy answer to this question. I started doing research for this episode and realized that, no, in fact, like, of course, you know, the idea of normalization or the term “normalization” goes way back to the 19th century, where it's mostly used in the context of science or math and statistics, where you're talking about returning something back to the norm, like back to its sort of typical state, which, again, makes a lot of sense if you're talking about gas, but doesn't really apply to society.
[00:10:05] So you start to see the discussion of normalization related to society or culture really in kind of the mid 20th century. And I found this definition of “normal” in an article by two psychologists who study how people define “normal”. And they were writing in the teens of this century. Their names are Adam Bear and Joshua Knobe. And they wrote, quote, “We found that when people think about what is normal, they combine their sense of what is typical with their sense of what is ideal.”
[00:10:38] And that, to me, says everything about why normalization is such an interesting term in science fiction. It's not just about what's average or mainstream. It's kind of an aspirational term.
Charlie Jane: [00:10:50] Yeah, that's so interesting. So I feel like what that tells us is that the idea of normal is actually two different things that have been switched together, right? Because it can mean either what we perceive to be the typical average thing, like, you know, most people are heterosexual, or most people identify as heterosexual versus the thing that we perceive to be the thing that we should aspire to. Like, most people should be heterosexual. Everybody should be heterosexual. And I feel like part of the slippage that happens is when you go from one meaning to the other without acknowledging that that's what you're doing.
[00:11:25] And this is really why when you and I first met, we were taking this class for sex educators, and they taught us to use “some, many, most”. Instead of saying that something is normal, they were like, “Some people do blah, many people do blah, most people do blah.” The idea, I think, was that you strip away that kind of idealized version and just try to talk as factually as you can about, like, what is typical.
Annalee: [00:11:47] Yeah, I think that because the term “normal” has such a moral overlay, and as soon as you start saying that things are normal, people don't just hear, “this is what most people do,” they hear, “oh, this is what I should be doing and what I'm supposed to be doing.” And when we talk about normalization in the public sphere or in culture, I wanted to just throw out a couple more terms that I want to put in the mix here as we're thinking about science fiction.
[00:12:14] So one term is “the Overton window”, which is a phrase that is used a lot to talk about what people are willing to accept as mainstream or centrist in politics. It's a term that comes out of public policy and is used to sort of describe how what we accept as public policy, centrist public policy, changes over time. The Overton window can move to the left or move to the right. And oftentimes we don't notice it. And I think when Trump was elected, you saw a ton of explainers about how the Overton window was moving, how he was sort of pulling it to the right by normalizing a lot of really radical white supremacist ideas, Christian supremacist ideas, that hadn't really been part of the centrist discussion until that point. I mean, they had been, but not for a long time.
[00:13:06] Another thing I want to mention is that in my research, I found that some of the early uses of the term “normalization” came out of public health. There was a really famous study in Sweden in the late fifties and early sixties where the researchers were talking about normalizing disability. And there was a specific public health program that was instituted in Sweden around that time in the sixties to bring people who were disabled or non-neurotypical out of special homes where they'd been put out of places where they'd really been marginalized and kind of essentially thrown away. And to put them into housing and living situations that were as close as possible to what their neighbors had as, you know, what quote unquote “normal people” had.
[00:13:53] And this idea also gained a lot of traction in the United States by the 1970s, where again, you saw people being taken out of lockdown facilities oftentimes and put into assisted living facilities or just group homes where they could live in a regular neighborhood. And so the idea there is to de-stigmatize certain kinds of people, right? Just to say, “no, these people absolutely are just like you and me. Yeah, maybe they use a wheelchair. Maybe they need special learning tools, but they're just normal.” And that's where the aspirational part comes in, right? We're aspiring as a civilization to make diversity seem typical and normal as opposed to anyone who's different being kind of locked up in a room.
Charlie Jane: [00:14:37] Yeah. And you know, I feel like that is where science fiction comes in. Like this is why we have so many fights over inclusion and representation in speculative fiction specifically, because who we see existing in the future, who we see existing in our fantasy worlds is who we can accept seeing in the real world. And I feel like, you know, getting to see who gets to be powerful, just this whole conversation that we keep having about invisibility and like whether certain people are condemned to just be so marginalized that they're invisible, like what you were talking about in Sweden with disabled people. That's such a powerful thing.
[00:15:16] And you know, you hear people talk about like seeing themselves reflected in speculative fiction, seeing black characters turning up in obviously Star Trek is a big one, but also Octavia Butler helped to kind of, you know, helped people to familiarize themselves with black protagonists more. And like, obviously you have like queerness being normalized by things like Becky Chambers and The Expanse kind of shows non-monogamy as though it's no big deal.
[00:15:42] What's interesting is when speculative fiction starts not just normalizing aspects of humanity that do exist in the real world that are like more common than people realize, but also providing metaphors and ways of just thinking about being a member of this marginalized group. But I think it's this thing that's hard to talk about because on the one hand, when we talk about normalization, what we really mean is for the “average” quote unquote person for like someone who maybe hasn't seen queer people or isn't as aware that they've seen queer people in real life, getting used to seeing queer people in their stories, makes them more accepting of queer people in the real world. But that's for people who are like, you know, straight and cis, at least identifying a straight and cis. That's for them.
[00:16:25] But then there's also this flip side that for people who belong to a particular identity, it can make them feel better, but it can help their self esteem, which is a different kind of normalization because it makes you feel better about yourself.
Annalee: [00:16:35] Yeah, it's normalizing your own experience, right? I've heard so many writers... I mean, we've talked to writers on the show about how, you know, growing up, they didn't see people like them represented. I was thinking about how when we talked to Moniquill Blackgoose, who wrote To Shape a Dragon's Breath, one of the things that she said a lot in interviews is that, you know, she didn't really realize that she could have indigenous characters in the story. And it's because when she was growing up, that just wasn't a thing. Then she wrote a novel that was all about indigenous characters. And I think kids growing up now will have that as an idea. Part of the ideal of what's normal, right?
[00:17:17] And that's why I think thinking of normalization as a process of idealization is really interesting to me because that's part of what we do when we write stories is we, in a sense, we idealize an image of what humanity or what civilization can look like. And I don't mean idealize, like make them unrealistically overpowered or make them into like perfect, good characters that never do anything wrong. I mean, anytime you're creating a fantasy, there's a certain way in which you're creating something that's a little bit crisper or better than real life.
Charlie Jane: [00:17:51] It's part of the escapism.
Annalee: [00:17:53] Yeah, it's part of the escapism. And so, you know, having this thing that's part of your imaginary landscape does allow you to aspire to something different. And I think a lot about the character of Wonder Woman and what she meant to people in the 20th century and even in the 21st century. And of course, Wonder Woman's had many incarnations and she's not perfect. You know, I'm not saying that she's like the ideal feminist icon, but just having a character who was wildly popular, who was a woman, who was powerful, who had political power, as well as physical power, who had a back-story, a complicated life, you know, that was a big thing. Like there weren't a lot of female heroes like that.
[00:18:39] I mean, there were plenty of female heroes who were like downtrodden or lived through like horrible melodramas in 1940s movies, you know, who were like, “ah, the tragic life of the woman who tries to be an entrepreneur.”
Charlie Jane: [00:18:52] Or the femme fatale or whatever.
Annalee: [00:18:54] Or the femme fatale or like the ingenue. But Wonder Woman was like, “no, you can just like kick butt. You know, you can be in charge. Like men can answer to you.”
Charlie Jane: [00:19:03] Hell yeah.
Annalee: [00:19:04] You can lead as well as follow. And so stuff like that, of course, there's no scientific instrument to measure what Wonder Woman did to the brains of little girls and little boys. But I think she did open up a space where female power was normalized.
Charlie Jane: [00:19:20] So let's talk about technology because it's… Science fiction doesn't just normalize, you know, different identities and different ways of, you know, looking at the world that also normalizes technologies and sciences, right?
Annalee: [00:19:32] Certainly, you know, we have lots of simple examples like you have a novel like 1984 normalizing the idea that the future is going to be full of dystopian surveillance technology and you get that also with the work of Philip K. Dick. Pretty much all of cyberpunk is kind of about this future where we as readers or we as watchers, because of course there's also plenty of, you know, TV and film that come out of this tradition. We're asked to assume that our world will be ruled by people who are constantly watching us using technology and that that's normal.
[00:20:09] And I think that's one of the parts of normalization that can be really negative. Especially when you start thinking about how so much of our science fiction currently, especially the stuff that's really hit the mainstream like Station Eleven or before that the novel The Road, both of which The Road became a movie, Station Eleven became an incredible TV show. These are very dystopian and they're not just dystopian at the level of civilization has perished, but they are stories about how human beings in some cases are not redeemable, human beings are just bad and you can't reason with them at some level. You have to just kill people.
[00:20:51] And sure, that might be true sometimes, but in the process of normalizing that kind of story, what you suggest to people is that, yeah, things are always going to get worse and you should just look out for yourself because dystopia is coming and, you know, you can't do anything about it.
Charlie Jane: [00:21:08] Yeah, that's dark. You know, science fiction can normalize like positive images of technology as well. Like you talked about space travel at the start. We always talk about how, you know, some of our technology is influenced by Star Trek or at least, you know, Star Trek helped to inspire some of the technology that we have. Star Trek kind of normalized this idea of like handheld computers and, you know, communication devices that you can kind of draw a line from that's what we have today. There are ways in which speculative fiction helps us to get more comfortable with computers in ways that are really positive.
[00:21:39] At the same time, you also see, you know, sometimes stories normalize some really horrible stuff that shouldn't be normalized. Like certain fantasy franchises where people are just being sexually assaulted all the time. And, you know, rape is just depicted as sort of like, “Oh, well, that's just part of life.” And like…
Annalee: [00:21:56] “That's just normal.”
Charlie Jane: [00:21:57] “It's just unrealistic not to show people being raped all over the place.” It's like, no, that's actually a choice. That's a choice to show that. And it's a choice to kind of depict it as like, yes, for sure. You can point to things in history where there have been a lot of sexual assaults, but also a lot of other things that you're not dealing with, like widespread dysentery. I don't know.
Annalee: [00:22:15] You pick what you're going to show and, you know, you can't include everything. And so if you want to show some kind of adversity, if you choose rape, that is a choice. The other thing too, is that, you know, when you focus exclusively on the dystopian side of a story, like “this is a world of rape instead of a world where, I don't know, there's a peasant revolt and people start to get jobs that pay better.” You know, that's another thing that happened in the middle ages. It wasn't all just like dysentery and rape.
[00:22:43] So yeah, I think when we talk about normalization, we do have to be really careful to be mindful about what it is that as storytellers, we want to normalize. What do we want to idealize? What's the point in doing it? And think about the fact that normalization can be a really powerful tool for making people believe that the world is potentially going to get better or the world is doomed to garbage.
Charlie Jane: [00:23:12] So is there a way to peel apart like those two kinds of types of normal that you talked about before? Like this is typical versus this is ideal. Because it feels like part of what's wonderful about what we're talking about, but also part of what's terrible about what we're talking about is that anything that you depict as normal seems to become desirable or at least unavoidable. Either it's like, “well, that's how things should be,” or just “that's the way things are and you can't do anything about it.” Both of which seem like kind of toxic ways of looking at the world. So is there any way around that to like peel those two meanings apart?
Annalee: [00:23:43] It's such a good question and I think really, as writers, as audiences, one of the things we have to constantly be questioning is this depiction of what's normal. Is it being idealized or is it being given to us just to show what's typical? That that's part of our job as critical consumers of media, right? Is to think about when we're being told that because something is typical, it is therefore the best or therefore the only thing we can do.
[00:24:14] For example, to go back to the rape example, not to dwell on that. Rape does happen to some people, and when I say some, I don't mean a tiny number. It's a typical experience, yet it's not something we want to aspire to. So how do we tell a story where we hold both of those things? I mean, that's the tough part. And like I said, I think that's part of our job as viewers, as readers to do that.
Charlie Jane: [00:24:38] And this is why, I mean, for example, when you represent a viewpoint in your fiction, people will sometimes read it as you advocating that viewpoint, even if you’re very clearly depicting it as wrong. There have been some cases recently where like black authors who depict racism in a way that's like, “this is showing racism as a terrible thing,” have been told that their books are advocating racism because readers approach it as just like anything that a character expresses in this book is the viewpoint of the author. That's part of where you went into trouble, I think.
Annalee: [00:25:05] Yeah, I don't think we are going to solve this right now.
Charlie Jane: [00:25:09] I don't think so.
Annalee: [00:25:10] If you have some like balanced breakfast of how to tease apart “norm” from “ideal”, please let us know, talk to us in Discord and tell us. But I think for now where I want to leave it is that we need to remember that oftentimes when something is presented to us as normal, what's really being said is “This is aspirational.” And we have a choice about what to aspire to. We certainly don't have a choice about what is the typical experience of most people in our world, but we do have a choice about where we go next. And that's the aspiration part.
Charlie Jane: [00:25:48] I love that.
Annalee: [00:25:50] OK, coming up after the break, we are super psyched to talk to Rob Cameron about neurodivergence and also a little bit about normalizing it.
[00:25:59] OOAC session break music, a quick little synth bwoop bwoo.
Annalee: [00:26:02] Rob Cameron is a poet and essayist whose work has appeared all over the place, from the magazine of science fiction and fantasy to foreign policy. And he's just published his first novel called Daydreamer. He’s also a teacher and has an academic background in linguistics. Welcome, Rob.
Rob: [00:26:18] Hello. Happy to be here.
Annalee: [00:26:21] Yes, we're so glad to have you. I wanted to start out by talking to you about your new novel Daydreamer, which is an incredible middle grade fantasy book that's partly about storytelling and partly about a boy named Charles who is neurodivergent. And I wanted you to talk to us a little bit about creating the character of Charles. What was that like for you?
Rob: [00:26:42] So this is one of those answers, which is easy and hard
at the same time, because usually when I write, the character is already there. It's just a question of, you know, “What do I learn about where they are right now?” So it started off as a short story. It started off with Glory and Charles and Ms. Huang as they're having like a babysitting adventure, basically.
Annalee: [00:27:04] Glory being a dragon kind of disguise.
Rob: [00:27:07] No spoilers, no spoilers.
Annalee: [00:27:08] Yeah, no, we know that immediately.
Rob: [00:27:11] And it just he felt like I don't want to say it's me because I do my best not to put myself directly on the page because who needs all of my trauma all at the same time? But it is more a case of because I have been teaching for almost 20 years, elementary, basically at this age and all the little people in my life, generally – I'm a father of two.
[00:27:33] My own experience in the 80s, you know, being in a situation similar to where Charles finds himself: being the odd one out all the time and having issues that people weren't quite picking up on. It all kind of came together and shaped itself. And so that was relatively easy. And now it's the question of what kind of trauma makes sense, what kind of adventure makes sense, what kind of fears and anxieties are going to end up on the page, particularly when it's in first person.
Annalee: [00:27:57] Yeah.
Charlie Jane: [00:27:58] Yeah. So how do you go about researching the character of Charles? Was it based on some of your students? Was it based on your own experiences?
Rob: [00:28:04] Again, a little bit of both. So the degree in linguistics, my focus really is on like the neurology side and on bilingualism, kind of what's happening in the brain when you are in an utterance or when you're in a conversation. And so it's like the research has significantly changed as we update in the last 20 years or so since I got my degree. So kind of keeping up with that, you know, there is some overlap between what we're looking for, you know, when looking at specific language disabilities and dyslexia, which are not the same thing. There's actually a lot of variation between the two. So I already had that in my background.
[00:28:40] But then also, you know, as a teacher, you know, I have many instances of students who have been dyslexic. And they come in many, many shapes and forms. And how do they cope with life? We can talk about, you know, how they cope with not being able to do the thing they're not able to do. But how do they cope with life and the people who have certain expectations around them? And so that side of it is almost separate from the issue of dyslexia, because everyone has to start with either, am I going to absorb this? Am I going to throw it back out of the world? How am I going to engage with this stress, this whatever deal I'm dealing with right now?
[00:29:12] So I made a decision relatively early on that he's going to be the kind of kid who absorbs all this information. He absorbs these things. He doesn't put it back under the world. He stews with it and it becomes part of his internal life. And through Glory – the other character – is kind of giving him more story feed, you know, that blends into something, a complete world which he can live in when he doesn't want to be in the real world. Or when the two of them kind of mesh together, this is his doorway into the adventures and fears he actually wants to deal with rather than what's going on in the classroom.
[00:29:40] You know, I've had students who were not even talking about dyslexia, like the way that they deal with their imagined spaces, because sometimes it'd be really, really funny. You know, I had a student I want to say, gosh, like 10 years ago, she's definitely in college or something by now. We were transitioning from social studies to math and I had all the kids come back to their desks and I look back and she has her desk turned and her chair turned and she has the book on her lap facing away from me as she is, she is giving instruction. She is the teacher teaching this book. Now she doesn't speak a word of English, right? So she's making, she's completely making it up. Completely making it up. And I call her name, I had to call her name I think two or three times and she's like, “Huh, huh, what? Oh!” and then she jumps into her desk, puts her hands together like she's been there the whole time. It's such a cute, such a cute moment.
[00:30:30] And then I have other students who same school, different year, different class. He was fantastic in the classroom. He was always helpful. If I needed support with somebody who doesn't speak English, he'd be the one I talked to. But then when I had the first parent conference with his mom, his mom was like, “So what is he doing? Let me tell him, let me know what he's doing in class. He's doing wrong and I will deal with that.” I'm like…
Charlie Jane: [00:30:54] Oh my gosh.
Rob: [00:30:55] “He’s perfect.” Well, I don't understand where that's coming from. And she started going on and on about him having voices in his head and imaginary friends and all these other issues that I had never seen because in the classroom, he was comfortable in the classroom. Whatever was going on there is different from what was going on somewhere else. So those anxieties, he's not dealing with them the same way. I asked his class and teacher from the previous year, because I was in third grade, you know, if they noticed anything. And they said, “Yeah, there were some issues. He did have an imaginary friend, but it wasn't like he was acting out.” You know, he would just be talking to his imaginary friend, you know, in class or on the playground or whatever. And his mom had him doing medication and stuff, but I never had to have a conversation with her. There was no medication, no medicating in the school. I was with him that year.
[00:31:45] So, just the transition, the environmental change changes how a child, really anybody, let's talk specifically about how a child will deal with whatever emotional things, everything's going on in their life. And a safe space for him was a school.
[00:31:58] Charles' school was not a safe space. That's where he's actually pushing back and saying, “OK, I can't read. I can't ask the questions. I don't really have a lot of friends here in the classroom. I have one friend, which is kind of like a friend, not a friend kind of situation. So I'm going to find my own place,” because his imagination is so, so constantly active and constantly being fed by the folk in his life that he can do it. And up until this point, not too many consequences, but, you know, being at a point in this level in school where now you have to read and it's no whether you can hide not being able to read. You know, he's running into a brick wall. So this is kind of the story starts and him.
Charlie Jane: [00:32:39] Yeah. As a kid who had a learning disability and was like very, you know, kind of unplugged in school, you know, especially elementary school, but part of junior high too, I really related to that in the book. And I loved that, like the whole thing of like making a comic book. I loved the whole making a comic book part. That was so cool. Can you talk about like storytelling in the book? I feel like storytelling is a theme that kind of runs through the book. And like, there's like Charles' friend, Will, who I guess is kind of a spoiler who Will really is. But, you know, Will is doing these drawings and they're going to make a comic book together. And, you know, there's different ways of telling stories in the book. And I'm wondering if you could also speak to this idea that like there's a right way to read or a right way to consume stories. And like people, for example, say that listening to audiobooks isn't really reading. And, you know, there's all these expectations put on how you're supposed to consume and tell a story.
Rob: [00:33:32] Yeah. Well, you know, here in in New York City, when it comes to how we teach and how we give instruction and how we're talking about how to get content to kids at a particular age, we have moved further to the left as far as what is acceptable as far as what you can read and what you're allowed to do, what counts as good reading, you know. And as an ESL teacher, it's funny, a lot of the things that they're saying are cutting edge, you know, work and training. How do you teach students in other ways? This is like linguistics and ESL from like 1998. There really isn't that much that I really see and wait to be go, “oh, wow, what a big difference this makes.”
[00:34:11] But when it comes to storytelling in the book for the comic book, it's cool because it is an interactive kind of storytelling in this place. You know, it's kind of a meeting ground with something that Charles can do and something that that Will can do, and when they do it together, it becomes a comic book. And that's like the one place that is a safe area where they can talk about things and work things out on the page without doing too many consequences. So they think, you know, they thought they think it's the safe space to be doing these kind of things.
Annalee: [00:34:43] So I do think as Charlie was saying, there's something beautiful about the idea that, you know, Charles can draw and Will can read and write. And so they come together and tell the story. And I wonder if this is part of talking about how there's no wrong way to read or write. Do you know what I mean? Like that there's no wrong way to tell a story. Because I do think as Charlie was saying, there is this discourse that like, if you aren't reading with your eyeballs on a page with the written word, that it doesn't count as reading. But obviously that's not true, right?
Rob: [00:35:15] Yeah, so I mean, tease this out a little bit. So as far as what we would like people to be able to do the amount of control they have over the written word, right?
Annalee: [00:35:26] Yeah.
Rob: [00:35:26] There are certain things that they have that they specifically have to be able to do. So, for example, English is one of those languages, which is kind of like a Russian doll, where you're constantly embedding and embedding and embedding in things. So being able to read to understand all the different things in context that are being put in there: that's really important to be able to do. It’s one of those things, actually, which even for them, they'll push back towards grammar instruction. We haven't really gotten back to doing because a lot of our students, particularly in New York City, are not first language learners, or standard English as their home language. So a lot of the stuff, which I kind of assume, “Oh, well they'll just get,” they don't, because it's not there.
[00:36:02] When you're trying to get the content to them, however, then it can be in many different ways. You know, if we're talking about comic books, for example, I've had this argument, this debate, my coworkers, because we start off talking to them about reading and writing, you know, for personal narratives. And then at the end of the year, we say, “OK, let's do graphic novels. But how about you flip that around, start with something which is cool, get them visually imagining these things and that one will lead to the other and a way that has them more invested.” So in that sense, specifically for the comic book, absolutely, there is no wrong way you can start in many different places to get where you want, which is for them to understand what a story is trying to tell and then also mastery of their own ability to say what they want to say.
[00:36:46] And even going back between different languages, going being bilingual, being able to go back and transition back between the two because those two things are, it's important. They're very, really helpful. If you're monolingual by this, by the end of the year, you started off as bilingual and something has gone wrong there, unfortunately. But being able to tell a story and understand a story and the nuances of things in the context, you can get to it so many different ways.
[00:37:07] I had a student years ago who was Haitian, but also he was special needs. So he would take the ELA back then and he would fail it every year. And so for one year, the story they had to read was about Haiti. And because he already knew so much about Haiti, he finally got a passing score on this thing because he already knew it.
Annalee: [00:37:26] He had the context.
Rob: [00:37:27] He had the context. So he had already adjusted that just by being it. Right? And so he didn't have to have anything explained to him. Whatever was on the page, there was enough going back enough from this. “OK, I get it. I know what they're doing.” So, yeah, absolutely. There are many different ways to get to to engage the text. What ends up being the final product is always going to be tricky because there is a certain level of mastery that we do want them to have. And if there is a confusion over understanding and knowledge and they control the text, then that is an issue.
[00:37:59] Now, when it comes to someone who is actually dyslexic, then again, we have technology which allows for us to get over that hump as well. And there's so many different ways. And also, I just say as a kind of dyslexic, we know as many other things that's a gradient. Right. So at a certain point. And I've seen many different variations of it. For example, one dyslexic student – or let me put it another way. This student had dyslexia, among other things, rather than saying this is just the adjective we're going to describe them.
[00:38:23] They could read unless there was too much text on the page and then their eyes would jump and they wouldn't be able to pre-plan correctly. But you just give them the text one line at a time. He can read it just fine. Whereas another child, she could read in Chinese, couldn't read in English just because the phonetic structure is different. There's no phonetics to Chinese. So you can see how students can have different issues and then still we can find a way to make it work as long as we have a conversation with them, as long as we engage them with the text and have enough time to engage them with the text.
[00:38:54] And so when it comes to what character I'm talking with who has these issues, you can say that they're dyslexic or whatever. But 99% of the story is not going to be about them on the page doing this thing that they cannot do unless there's some point, you know, they can do it. You know, where are you going to spend most of your time? This kid feels, feels power, feels like there's a way forward. That you're going to spend your time. How did they use this as an avenue to move forward and just, you know, get beyond the grade?
[00:39:22] Because I don't know about you, but I don't really remember a whole lot of fourth grade. No. So it's not like there has to be every little thing has to get through. “Did you enjoy the experience? Did you? What did you pull from it? What's memorable about it? What did you gain from it? Besides seeing that I couldn't do this one thing that everybody tells me I should be able to do and why can't I do it because I'm lazy? Maybe I am lazy. Now I think I'm lazy now too. So therefore I will be lazy.” You know, the cycle.
Charlie Jane: [00:39:46] So were there any like misconceptions about neurodivergence that you wanted to kind of address or maybe, you know, puncture in this story?
Rob: [00:39:54] I think I kind of done it. Or, let me put it this way. The story is not done. You know, it's not done.
Charlie Jane: [00:40:01] Right. It's the first book in a duology, right?
Rob: [00:40:03] Yes. So like this book was more about us noticing, the audience noticing, the readers noticing, you know, this is what's not working, you know, and then how do we say, OK, even though that's not working, let's just see the whole child, right? That's, I think, the big thing for us to see who they are, who Charles is as a whole person. As far as what I noticed about neurodivergence, you know, again, it's the whole thing about them being lazy. You know, I've had even though…
[00:40:29] I put it in the 1980s because things were more difficult in the 1980s than they are now. And so I have co-workers who know all about this, you know. They're specialists, though they're special needs teachers or the speech therapists. They know what they're talking about. A lot of teachers, you know, I surrender to, “Oh, this kid is lazy.” And I'm with them for five minutes. No, that's not the issue.
[00:40:48] So it becomes kind of a habit. And so kind of us as a person who's reading it to the child, I'm hopeful I want this to be something that happens to conversation in classrooms, is what I would really like, or conversation with a child who is also dyslexic.
Annalee: [00:41:04] Are there any characters in science fiction and fantasy that you think are kind of like stealth neurodivergent? Because I know like oftentimes when we talk about queer characters in history, we'll say like, “Oh, that character was totally supposed to be queer.” It's not like on the surface of the text, but it's kind of like signaling to the reader. And I wonder if there's anything like that for neurodivergence.
Rob: [00:41:26] That's funny. I mean, I think any time that you start to mesh artificial intelligence or AI or robotic like characteristic with somebody, now you're starting to play in an area which is you got to be you got to be extra careful, right? Because there's things that have been okay in 1980s, 70s and 60s before, which are, you know, we know more, therefore we should not be doing that again.
[00:41:50] If someone is highly intelligent, you know, but can't focus on the one thing that becomes, oh, they must have ADD, right? Because it's so obvious that's the thing. But a lot of my students who are girls, their ADHD does not present in the same way. So understanding that. So I don't know if I would say that I can pinpoint anyone that is specifically this. I will say that since Percy Jackson, they've done a better job of moving them to the forefront. And I like the fact that now, just because it's become more popular, I guess, like the last 10 years or so, first person does allow for a bit more subjectivity for you to understand and feel that in a way that you can get in third person – you can do whatever you want in third person, too – but the interior that you’re walking into somebody else's skin, that does do a different kind of mind trick. And I think that kind of the two kind of lining up the same time. I don't know if it's a coincidence, but it's a good coincidence, if so.
Annalee: [00:42:44] That's really interesting.Yeah.
Charlie Jane: [00:42:46] Yeah. I mean, I thought about Percy Jackson a little bit, you know, in relation to Daydreamer. I have people that can be compared to Percy Jackson because that's also a character who I think has dyslexia and it's like turns out to be a secret superpower.
[00:43:00]What do you think about that trope generally of like someone whose disability turns out to be kind of secretly a superpower?
Rob: [00:43:05] Well, I mean, again, it has to be specific, right? So if you are we can talk about high functioning versus low functioning and then that even that becomes kind of a gray area. It's like like a language. You know, it works in a specific context, right? But it was something that is used in every... This is the tool I'm going to use for every one of my different problems. Then you kind of start running into a problem.
[00:43:27] As I'm reading Percy Jackson, the things that make it not so much a superpower, but it's kind of like indicative of a superpower. So it's not like him being dyslexic gives him an edge. It's just that it's like, “oh, you have ADHD and you can't concentrate. Oh, that's because your brain is accelerating. You're getting all these other things at the same time. Oh, you can't read? Oh, that's because you're hardwired for Greek.”
[00:43:49] Now, that part, I don't think is particularly sound research. I mean, one of the things that we do when you teach dyslexic students is that we do try to help them kind of connect to the Latin and Greek roots because they're little mnemonics and stuff you can get to kind of hold on to. Even if your brain isn't actually seeing exactly what's there, you get enough of it to kind of be able to kind of guess because you already have... you're building the real understanding of words in a different way. In a much more direct way.
[00:44:16] And that's a part of grammar instruction now. It's being pulled back into the fore in New York City, New York State. But the books that I'm reading, they're not really focusing on that. And so I have to go back and think, “OK, is this someone who, if you were to write this now, would you just have to pinpoint and say, this is what this is?” And to a certain extent, when I wrote Charles, as a teacher, technically we don't say that a student is dyslexic. We don't diagnose, right? Because we're not doctors.
[00:44:46] We have indicators. And so as a shorthand, having the conversation, and as the shorthand and trying to talk to people about the book, as a shorthand for selling the book, we say this word because, “Oh, I feel like I have a gestalt kind of understanding of what this means.” But, you know, especially talking about neurodivergence, there's a web of different stuff that is connected to it, which is another reason why whenever we talk about this, I want to be careful.
[00:45:10] It's not a superpower, although in the case of dyslexia, see, we do start to see that the ways that the neural pathways are connected and the specific kinds of nerves that are used, that are used differently for someone who is dyslexic or someone who's not dyslexic, they tend to be actually longer. Actually, the nerves are actually longer. So you're actually making more vast connections between two different points. You can make an argument so that if you're dyslexic, maybe you're better at poetry, maybe you're better at spatial reasoning. You could make the argument.
Annalee: [00:45:41] Or puns.
Rob: [00:45:42] Or puns.
Annalee: [00:45:42] I happen to know someone who's dyslexic who is amazing at puns.
Rob: [00:45:46] Really?
Annalee: [00:45:47] Yes. I don't know if there's any connection. It's crazy. Like he can just like pun, like mad.
Rob: [00:45:53] Deep cuts.
Annalee: [00:45:54] Exactly. So I wanted to finish up by asking you what you want to see in the future of representations of neurodivergence in science fiction, fantasy, even in non genre fiction. I know we shouldn't mention, but I mean…
Rob: [00:46:08] I feel like it's on an upward trend already. You know, when you brought up the idea of it being a superpower, I'm on the fence about that because maybe for somebody they need to see it as superpower. You know, in my martial arts class, I had a other classmate who was definitely on the spectrum and he thought of himself as a robot. You know, he put himself in that frame of mind so that he could get through the day. You know, so I can see it being something that's helpful.
[00:46:37] What I just like to see is more variation. And for it to be a specific point that's made, there's a lot of variation because you can tell the story a thousand and one different ways and get different stories from different kind of people. And I guess also to emphasize that, you know, on the page, the majority of what you're doing is not them dealing with this thing that they can't do. It's them finding ways to do things they want to do. And that's what I would say. I mean, and I feel like a lot of stories are doing that. But again, you know, I only read good stories. All my friends are really good writers. So I'm like, okay, put it in front of me. I'm always guaranteed I'm not going to run into any crap. This is going to be really amazing every single time out of the box.
Annalee: [00:47:15] That’s awesome. So where can our listeners find your work?
Rob: [00:47:19] At any bookstore, Bookshop.org. Look for Daydreamer. If you’re a librarian or if you’re a teacher, please do bring this to your class; bring this to your school. I would love to be able to talk to students about this as well, and the teachers as well, absolutely. I have [been in] Foreign Policy and Solarpunk Magazine. The other thing I’m really into is Solarpunk as a new genre of fiction, Solarpunk noir. I just sold a novelette to Lightspeed Magazine for that, as well. [Unclear] words on the thing that’s called X, whatever. Also on Instagram and rob-cameron.com on the web in general. But yeah, please do. I love to talk to people about all this stuff.
Annalee: [00:47:54] Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This was awesome.
Charlie Jane: [00:47:57] Yeah, thanks so much.
[00:47:59] OOAC session break music, a quick little synth bwoop bwoo.
Annalee: [00:48:02] You have been listening to Our Opinions Are Correct. And we thank you so much for listening. This is like what makes our lives great is knowing that someone out there might be listening. And remember, you can always find us on Mastodon, Patreon, and Instagram. Thanks so much to our brilliant producer and engineer, Niah Harmon. Thanks to Chris Palmer and Katya Lopez-Nichols for the music. If you're a patron, we will see you on Discord. Otherwise, we will be in your ears in two weeks with another fresh episode. Bye!
Charlie Jane: [00:48:35] Bye!
[00:48:36] [OOAC theme plays. Science fiction synth noises over an energetic, jazzy drum line.]